I were participant of Erasmus in Italy few years ago. There were 2 students from France following internship program. One fellow from Cameroon who wake up every morning at 5 am and get sleep around the midnight because he do 2 faculties and also have a some part time job. There where also another girl with was Muslim and she make some project (2 day per week) in university. I was attending Italian lessons with this girl and there is some situation witch stuck on my mind. Our Italian language teacher ask “what are yours feature plans?” she responds that she is going to give up with any feature education and become a Mother. Answer was interesting so we asked how many kids she going to have? She say that at least 5 and that amount ins her family is something typical. So another question was even more obvious “how you going to get founds to support such big family?”. She answers that fortunately she lives in France and France government support many children families to survive on more or les acceptable condition. Do not get me wrong I do not have anything against Muslims as an religion (until they become suicide bombers) but this point of view can destroy any country with such social support.
I think it would need more deep conversation - whether she wanted to have an easy life or belied in growing family as a true life "target". And having 5 kids is not an easy task - I have 3 and I do know something about that :)
I personally would like to see a society driven force that would help having many kinds. It's rational.
I'm not too worried, I expect Muslim religiousness to start declining in the near future just like Christianity is declining now. As for demographics, there is a strong correlation between poverty and population growth. When some of the predominantly Arab countries become highly developed, their populations will experience negative growth as well. The bigger problem are immigration issues and cultural integration. But the video makes no effort to name or acknowledge those issues and only assumes that "immigration is bad" and "action is needed".
Now a days we live in global word so it is normal that people go to country where economics are better then in their own country and it isn't mater if that people are Muslim, Christian or other . To be honest I treat that film similar to that what Germany,Netherlands, British people told when Poland join to UE they say that polish people go to their country and will be stolen their jobs. I don't like that kind films because I think that kind of films are tendentious, they scare people or make bad feelings.
I live in a smaller town than Warsaw surrounded by Christians or atheists, so please look at my opinion only as theoretical without any practical basis. I see that some problems in presentation were mixed. I am not sure if author wanted to show problems connected with other religion or with simply saying foreigners. I think that we have possibility for living in other countries greater than ever, so I am not sure that showed problem is connected really with Muslims. As Krzysztof said I also heard a lot about Poles who moved with their families to Ireland - in the previous decade before world crisis - and have 2 or more children because of social help from Irish government. So if government support for big families is at least the same for citizens and foreigners and if foreigners use it more than citizens I see generally problem in motivation, expected comfort of life by particular people etc. I also personally know three catholic families with six children and plenty families with three or more children so I don’t think that fertility problem is connected with particular religion. Rather I think that it is connected with lack of religion or with superficial treatment of religion. More interesting to me is a question about limits of tolerance. Generally I think that visitors should respect host’s rules and hosts shouldn’t destroy visitors habits who don’t influence directly on their life. I know that there are points of contention originating from previous years so when somebody wants to find cause for new war in the past he finds it. I believe that Wiktor will be right and Muslim’s flow showed in video will stop in future.
Personally, I find this short film being full of propaganda. So what the the muslim population is growing in Europe? Statements such as “the fall of the German population cannot be stopped” don’t make sense to me - what fall? If people of muslim belief will be born in Germany, will have a German citizenship, they too will be Germans. They too will be the “German population”. For me, the movie is extremely xenophopic and supports segregation. What difference does it make if we are Christian or Muslim or Buddhist? We are all people. People brought up in certain cultures, and culture, family and surroundings have a greater impact on the way children grow up than religion.
It almost seems like we would be going back to the ‘wars of religion’ centuries back. I’m definitely for a more ‘humanistic’ approach. With globalization it is normal that people want to move around the globe. If they are not happy with the place they were born, they can always move elsewhere. It’s not like we have a monopoly on Europe. We as Europeans can just as well go to muslim countries if we wish and live there.
The echo from this video in addition, is that the fact of being muslim is bad, dangerous, even life-threatening. And that is a huge stereotype. There are millions of ‘normal’ families, living their lie in peace just like the rest of us and wanting a better life for their children. Throwing all people od muslim belief in the “extremist, terrorist” bag is just ridiculous.
I agree. This kind of movies only promote aggressive feelings. The last sentence about action sounds like we should go and kill them...It is especially dangerous for young people who are easily influenced by such way of presenting subjects. It’s important to introduce immigration policy and monitor this process by governments but presenting this problem in such hateful way is not right for Muslim people who work, pay taxes and have normal families.
I'm Catholic, so I am tolerant of other religions, including Muslims, but after watching the film I'm scared because this nation is associated with terrorism. However, we are not able to avoid the migration ... However, I hope that these are just statistics that was once in the future will not check.
Well, in my opinion it's not just statistics. I remember that during my last stay in the Netherlands I observed a very large number of Muslims there. In any train or bus I met large family with four or more children. Sometimes I felt strange, because it looked liked they feel more confident than the rest of citizens. Don't get me wrong, it didn't bother me, but it was something completly new for me. For the first time I started to think about Muslim imigration.
ok my fellow racists :) just joking but few general comments according to this page:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim
Says something about M. being religion, going further:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/France
Saying somehting about France being country (I know hard to believe :) ). But back on topic being Muslim and being French in my opinnion are two different categories, good point would be to compare this to how fertile are christians ... but this seems not exactly right ... People should be allowed to choose faith as they like, and despite statistics christianity didn't died out for some time .... did they ?
Yes, I agree that you could choose your faith your own way but there is an important point. I believe that this statement might mislead you. Waiting let’s say 18 years to get to the point when you would choose the faith is a wasted time. If parents do believe they surround their child with what they believe is best. That way you grow in this particulate faith environment.
Another thing is that we all have a free will but it is tricky :). It does not mean that we can do all we want. There are borders that should not be crossed and those are other people freedom.
To be honest, the increase in numbers of the believers of Islam doesn’t scare me. I am actually not concerned at all. I'm rather worrying about the fact that Poland, supposedly a pro family the state, does nothing to increase the fertility rate. The offer of 1000zł birth bonus called “becikowe“ and a short maternity leave, are not a big incentives to have children nowadays in our country. Poles don’t have jobs or live in constant fear of losing one. At the same time Poland , as one of the leading countries in Europe, keep issuing large amounts of visas with work permit, mainly for our eastern neighbors, who come and take jobs from Poles. While working mainly “on black”, usually for little wages, they don’t leave Polish workers much opportunity to compete with them. If only they stayed in Poland and used later the learned skills for the development of our country it would be beneficial. However, they mostly treat Poland as a transit country to emigrate to the West carrying the learned skills in order to live there well and with a dignity. So, to summarize , I am not interested in any crappy “Islamic threat” situation in Germany or in France. Like many people in this country I believe that if the family had better social support and the cheap eastern immigration is somehow limited, the family and birth rate situation would improve. Poland is a Catholic country and most likely it is going to stay so no matter what, so I have no fear of “attack” of Islam. The additional demographic growth spawned by the State social benefits would certainly help us from the extinction prophesized in the attached video.
I were participant of Erasmus in Italy few years ago. There were 2 students from France following internship program. One fellow from Cameroon who wake up every morning at 5 am and get sleep around the midnight because he do 2 faculties and also have a some part time job. There where also another girl with was Muslim and she make some project (2 day per week) in university. I was attending Italian lessons with this girl and there is some situation witch stuck on my mind. Our Italian language teacher ask “what are yours feature plans?” she responds that she is going to give up with any feature education and become a Mother. Answer was interesting so we asked how many kids she going to have? She say that at least 5 and that amount ins her family is something typical. So another question was even more obvious “how you going to get founds to support such big family?”. She answers that fortunately she lives in France and France government support many children families to survive on more or les acceptable condition. Do not get me wrong I do not have anything against Muslims as an religion (until they become suicide bombers) but this point of view can destroy any country with such social support.
ReplyDeleteI think it would need more deep conversation - whether she wanted to have an easy life or belied in growing family as a true life "target". And having 5 kids is not an easy task - I have 3 and I do know something about that :)
DeleteI personally would like to see a society driven force that would help having many kinds.
It's rational.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteI would much prefer to see common sense spreading widely rather than extremes.
ReplyDeleteThe matter is important. We should be aware of it but not scared by.
It is a long process and does not happen overnight. Anyway we could have some influence especially via activities performed usually during night :).
I'm not too worried, I expect Muslim religiousness to start declining in the near future just like Christianity is declining now. As for demographics, there is a strong correlation between poverty and population growth. When some of the predominantly Arab countries become highly developed, their populations will experience negative growth as well. The bigger problem are immigration issues and cultural integration. But the video makes no effort to name or acknowledge those issues and only assumes that "immigration is bad" and "action is needed".
ReplyDeleteNow a days we live in global word so it is normal that people go to country where economics are better then in their own country and it isn't mater if that people are Muslim, Christian or other . To be honest I treat that film similar to that what Germany,Netherlands, British people told when Poland join to UE they say that polish people go to their country and will be stolen their jobs. I don't like that kind films because I think that kind of films are tendentious, they scare people or make bad feelings.
ReplyDeleteI live in a smaller town than Warsaw surrounded by Christians or atheists, so please look at my opinion only as theoretical without any practical basis.
ReplyDeleteI see that some problems in presentation were mixed. I am not sure if author wanted to show problems connected with other religion or with simply saying foreigners. I think that we have possibility for living in other countries greater than ever, so I am not sure that showed problem is connected really with Muslims. As Krzysztof said I also heard a lot about Poles who moved with their families to Ireland - in the previous decade before world crisis - and have 2 or more children because of social help from Irish government. So if government support for big families is at least the same for citizens and foreigners and if foreigners use it more than citizens I see generally problem in motivation, expected comfort of life by particular people etc.
I also personally know three catholic families with six children and plenty families with three or more children so I don’t think that fertility problem is connected with particular religion. Rather I think that it is connected with lack of religion or with superficial treatment of religion.
More interesting to me is a question about limits of tolerance. Generally I think that visitors should respect host’s rules and hosts shouldn’t destroy visitors habits who don’t influence directly on their life. I know that there are points of contention originating from previous years so when somebody wants to find cause for new war in the past he finds it.
I believe that Wiktor will be right and Muslim’s flow showed in video will stop in future.
Personally, I find this short film being full of propaganda. So what the the muslim population is growing in Europe? Statements such as “the fall of the German population cannot be stopped” don’t make sense to me - what fall? If people of muslim belief will be born in Germany, will have a German citizenship, they too will be Germans. They too will be the “German population”. For me, the movie is extremely xenophopic and supports segregation. What difference does it make if we are Christian or Muslim or Buddhist? We are all people. People brought up in certain cultures, and culture, family and surroundings have a greater impact on the way children grow up than religion.
ReplyDeleteIt almost seems like we would be going back to the ‘wars of religion’ centuries back. I’m definitely for a more ‘humanistic’ approach. With globalization it is normal that people want to move around the globe. If they are not happy with the place they were born, they can always move elsewhere. It’s not like we have a monopoly on Europe. We as Europeans can just as well go to muslim countries if we wish and live there.
The echo from this video in addition, is that the fact of being muslim is bad, dangerous, even life-threatening. And that is a huge stereotype. There are millions of ‘normal’ families, living their lie in peace just like the rest of us and wanting a better life for their children. Throwing all people od muslim belief in the “extremist, terrorist” bag is just ridiculous.
This comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteI agree. This kind of movies only promote aggressive feelings. The last sentence about action sounds like we should go and kill them...It is especially dangerous for young people who are easily influenced by such way of presenting subjects. It’s important to introduce immigration policy and monitor this process by governments but presenting this problem in such hateful way is not right for Muslim people who work, pay taxes and have normal families.
DeleteI fully agree. This is a bad way of showing the point of the discussed phenomenon.
DeleteI'm Catholic, so I am tolerant of other religions, including Muslims, but after watching the film I'm scared because this nation is associated with terrorism. However, we are not able to avoid the migration ... However, I hope that these are just statistics that was once in the future will not check.
ReplyDeleteWell, in my opinion it's not just statistics. I remember that during my last stay in the Netherlands I observed a very large number of Muslims there. In any train or bus I met large family with four or more children. Sometimes I felt strange, because it looked liked they feel more confident than the rest of citizens. Don't get me wrong, it didn't bother me, but it was something completly new for me. For the first time I started to think about Muslim imigration.
Deleteok my fellow racists :) just joking but few general comments according to this page:
ReplyDeletehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim
Says something about M. being religion, going further:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/France
Saying somehting about France being country (I know hard to believe :) ). But back on topic being Muslim and being French in my opinnion are two different categories, good point would be to compare this to how fertile are christians ... but this seems not exactly right ... People should be allowed to choose faith as they like, and despite statistics christianity didn't died out for some time .... did they ?
Yes, I agree that you could choose your faith your own way but there is an important point. I believe that this statement might mislead you. Waiting let’s say 18 years to get to the point when you would choose the faith is a wasted time. If parents do believe they surround their child with what they believe is best. That way you grow in this particulate faith environment.
DeleteAnother thing is that we all have a free will but it is tricky :). It does not mean that we can do all we want. There are borders that should not be crossed and those are other people freedom.
To be honest, the increase in numbers of the believers of Islam doesn’t scare me. I am actually not concerned at all. I'm rather worrying about the fact that Poland, supposedly a pro family the state, does nothing to increase the fertility rate. The offer of 1000zł birth bonus called “becikowe“ and a short maternity leave, are not a big incentives to have children nowadays in our country. Poles don’t have jobs or live in constant fear of losing one. At the same time Poland , as one of the leading countries in Europe, keep issuing large amounts of visas with work permit, mainly for our eastern neighbors, who come and take jobs from Poles. While working mainly “on black”, usually for little wages, they don’t leave Polish workers much opportunity to compete with them. If only they stayed in Poland and used later the learned skills for the development of our country it would be beneficial. However, they mostly treat Poland as a transit country to emigrate to the West carrying the learned skills in order to live there well and with a dignity. So, to summarize , I am not interested in any crappy “Islamic threat” situation in Germany or in France. Like many people in this country I believe that if the family had better social support and the cheap eastern immigration is somehow limited, the family and birth rate situation would improve. Poland is a Catholic country and most likely it is going to stay so no matter what, so I have no fear of “attack” of Islam. The additional demographic growth spawned by the State social benefits would certainly help us from the extinction prophesized in the attached video.
ReplyDelete